Please listen to this sample (turn up your volume : ) ! ):
What do you think of this piece? What kind of music do you think this fits under? What kind of mood does the piece project? If you chose to comment (and I hope you do), please try to include your first impressions..
Now, if you want to know more about this piece, please read on:
Well first of all that piece was created by me. Now I know you have your brickbats ready – but please reconsider after my defense:
Please note that I am not even an amateur music composer. I am a rank amateur dabbler dabbling in areas beyond his abilities – with curiosity and love for music as his only guides. The above sample is basically as a possible proof of concept – a concept that I explain below.
So peace – ok? Now, please read on.
If you are into western rock music, particularly hard rock, I wonder what your reaction would be to that melody. It probably sounded strange – sounded ‘”eastern”.
Now, if you are into Indian Carnatic music, you probably may recognize the scale/raga behind this song. However, if your musical interests (past and/or present) do not include the strange mix of Carnatic music and Hard rock, then there is a good chance that you closed your ears, and chanted Shiva Shiva 
!
Reviving a dead horse
In this blog entry, I revive a topic I thought was done-in and left for dead – Carnatic Music in Western World. I had posted a couple of articles wa…y back, but then ran out of gas. I simply could not come up with anything interesting in that area.
However, a few months ago, one of the more intriguing “problems” regarding music tickled my curiosity yet again. Why do Carnatic music and western music always seem like oil and water. Is there a way to mix them effectively? This thought gnawed at my brain long enough that I decided to bold and try my hand at harmonizing a carnatic raga, although based on my knowledge in western music, this was perhaps madness.
I picked simhendramadhyamam as the raga, which is expressed as S R2 G2 M2 P D1 N3 S in Carnatic Music lingo. In terms of semitone intervals, it is 2 1 3 1 1 3 1, which is like the harmonic minor scale, except the fourth is raised by a semitone. I don’t remember consciously weeding out other ragas to zero-in on simhendramadhyamam, and hence it was picked for really no particular reason. I do love the raga, but I can’t put it in the same category as the “my favorite” ragas I had discussed in my other blog entries – it is sort of in a lower category than those others. I do however remember wanting to pick a raga that has a tonal structure, and a mood that is completely different from even the less commonly used scales in western music. And simhendramadhyamam is one of the ragas that fits this bill.
So, I dusted off my old guitar, and plucked and strummed for hours trying to see which chords fit the raga. This was perhaps doomed from the start because, first of all, I had no idea how to apply chords to a melody. I also did not know how to come with a chord progression for a scale, and then apply melody etc. All I could do was hum snippets of melodies in simhendramadhyamam, and I could strum chords (atleast there I know simple as well as half-way complex chords). So it was no surprise that I soon hit a wall at everywhere I turned. I remember thinking that my melody sounded so carnatic and those chords sound so western, and they just don’t seem to blend at all. Even the complex chords I tried, while they sounded different and exotic, they did not match the mood of the melodies I was trying. So I gave up after a day or so – with very sore fingertips. In short – Oil and water.
I had shelved this problem a while ago and had forgotten about it, but then, my interest was rekindled. A part of it was krishashok‘s innocuous reference to me as someone who shared his dual (or duelling?) interest in Carnatic and Classic Rock – I felt strangely obligated to demonstrate that interest (BTW, that single word reference helped obliterate all my blog stats record – thanks KA!). Another part is due to philramble‘s recent posts on simhendramadhyamam.
Anyway, this time, to avoid a repeat of the earlier fiasco, I first started googling to find out the deal behind chords and scales. I found some enlightening answers regarding the theory behind how chords are related to a melody. However, as I applied what I learnt to simhendramadhyamam to figure out appropriate chords, I found that the concepts did not apply readily or at least not in a straightforward fashion. Obviously, this is part of a long learning process – there is theory and then there is practice. You can’t create music just from theory – you need application, which grows only from experience.
However, after a couple days filled with several hours of mulling over things, fooling around painfully with my guitar (mentally and physically w.r.t fingertips), I was finally able to piece together the rock guitar solo you heard above. It actually faithfully sticks to the scale of simhendramadhyamam, with the melody pretty much keeping to the order of notes in the scale as done with ragas (as explained by my Ragas and Scales post). And most importantly, it is played to a chord progression! Hooray!
Now, this was not intended to be a “very classical” representation of simhendramadhyamam melody with chords. My aim was to see if I can fit this “exotic scale” into the hard rock music context. In fact, I wanted to blend it such that it would seem to “fit in”. Yet, I did not want the raga to be manipulated too much to fit this context that it was beyond recognition. I still wanted the flavor of the raga to be perceptible – the stronger the better. I think looking back at the end result, it does sound more western than Carnatic – but there is enough Carnatic flavor to it (IMO). I may be a bit presumptuous here, but I do feel happy (nay thrilled) that it at least shows glimpses of simhendramadhyamam’s potential of “bringing the house down” – under the expert hands of right professionals.
A Technical Note for carnatic aficionados: Regarding why this is not classical simhendramadhyamam - beyond the lack of classical gamakas (there are some here and there), there is generally too much emphasis on da, also in certain contexts (like descending) which is probably not kosher for a classical version. In general, da and ga are more emphasized compared to ni and ri. These were sort of a result of the chord progression I picked, which in turn is due to he fact that it was easier to come up with the right chords for da and ga.
Mood of simhendramadhyamam in hard rock:
Now, let me babble a little bit more about the character of that melody – at least as I see it.
Even before I started out, the mood I wanted to bring from simhendramadhyamam was one of anger, particularly one bursting out of desperation following desolation. The torrent of swaras/notes I could envision seemed to remind me the fury of a volcano. Maybe it is me, but I find simhendramadhyamam to be very apt for this mood, particularly when you free it from the confines of Carnatic music, where serious anger etc. are not exactly part of the genre. But, maybe my association of this mood with this raga also comes from my influences as a classic rock fan, where I found special attraction to the anger and melancholy of Pink Floyd among other bands. A hard rocking guitar solo to a dark mood usually gets my attention.
I guess I wanted the guitar solo to be like the one from Don’t Fear the Reaper of Blue Oyster Cult, albeit with more obvious Carnatic overtones.
Now, reader – did I even achieve 1% of what I set out? Can I say the following?
Rock on mad (madhyamam) Lion (simhendra) !
PS: The entire piece is computer generated on my Mac, using Garage Band. I did hand construct the melody based on my knowledge of the raga. I also picked the chord progression (surprisingly all simple chords – although I am not 100% if they are used in a sensible way). And no – I did not play the guitar! I wish I could play real guitar like that. At this point, I can only do air guitar to such leads
! I am indeed quite amused and amazed that my computer can play guitar a few thousand times better than I could ever do!
August 25, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Hey Arun,
I am very impressed with what you have done. I did recognise it as some sort of fusion music.I must admit that all your tecnical explanations are way over my head!!! However, I didn’t think this Raga invoked anger as the first emotion. I though it was quite pleasing to listen to- maybe “mellow” is a better word.
I am glad atleast one of us got amma’s music gene.
Usha
Arun: Thanks (sis) – mellow-wa? Man – may be I should have applied more distortion
– but I was going for more 70s rock feel (in terms of how loud and noisy), as opposed to the later heavy-metal, death-metal kinds. And yes this assignment of moods of ragas is a slippery slope 
– very subjective. In fact, I think it seems like I may be the only one to see anger in it!
August 25, 2008 at 10:09 pm
I’m self conscious about disseminating classical music as I’m a rasika.
I recall Simhendramadhyamam from an old Raja composition (Anandha ragam ketkum kaalam).
It’s evocative of righteousness (is that what you call anger?), a splendid soaring of emotion, a heightened feeling of beauty and awe, dancing on notes to balance passion and calm.
Go on sir, make more music. We’re all ears.
Best
August 25, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Blown away. A really neat recording and a very informative post! How did you superimpose effects on the guitar recording (drum cycles, et al)?
Nice to see that my modest efforts spurred you on to this informative post! It gives me more gumption to pursue something set in Simhendramadhyamam, especially since I have been thinking that I beat a dead horse each time I play it. Perhaps the best solution to one’s lapsing into a certain style of play, is to listen to a wholly unsettling style of play, such as fusion.
Fusion, especially as Shakti played it, sounded interesting to me for the last two years or so, before which I was a confirmed metalhead (and a rock-head, for lack of a better term). Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, Yes, The Who, Doors, etc.
Over the last one year, I found much more meaning and solace in the intricate, near-mathematical and systematic melodies of Carnatic music. In summary, I guess I have trodden the same path as you and krishashok. That said, Jazz/Blues does sound interesting to me and I have been listening to more Jazz/Blues bands these days, since it seems a world apart from Carnatic, while still being complementary.
Sort of like the other side of the Venn diagram.
Also, I found your work on gamaka modeling intriguing. Will try it out in more detail and comment later.
Also, my sister happens to share my penchant for Carnatic, except more authentically so:
http://bkreative.blogspot.com
August 26, 2008 at 5:51 am
It resembles some form of fusion. excellent venture. my blessings to you
August 26, 2008 at 9:31 am
@maami: Gee – thanks maami! I think the “soaring of emotion” is probably what I associate with anger atleast in this case. But this is heavily subjective and without words (as in lyrics) to perhaps help disambiguate (or bolster the intention), it will remain open to personal interpretation. So I would say it is indeed interesting to know how different people see it differently. BTW, yes anandha raagam ketkum from panneer pushpangal is in this raga – a yet another raja classic. He also has one in kaadhal oviyam (sangeetha jaathi mullai – the 2nd half).
@philramble: My friend, I would advise you to buy a Mac
– Not that this is only Mac specific though. But basically it has a program called GarageBand (free, as in part of the OS package) which is a MIDI synthesizer + a multi-track editor. With it, the sky is the only limit (or in my case, my abilities 
). I will check out you sister’s blog. And I will blogroll you (meaning to do that for a while).
@thanjavooran: Thanks sir and welcome to my blog.
August 26, 2008 at 9:51 am
Ah, one more mac convert. Good good. One at a time. Nicely done, by the way. I would have made the bass track a little more sophisticated, and oh, you must try recording a real guitar. Keyboard synth generated guitars don’t sound that nice.
Me and a colleague of mine (hrsh.wordpress.com) are going to record a couple of classic rock versions of popular carnatic tunes, with a little bit more seriousness, and you will ofcourse be our first guinea pigs
Arun: Thanks! Been a mac-head for 2 years now. When I bought it I was worried it would be just a toy – but at home it is the main computer for the wife and I (and even my little kid). Yes – the bass track. I didn’t spend too much effort on it although the thought did occur to me to make it do patterns around the scale per the chord. Like I said to someone else, I was just thrilled I would izhuththufy – the lead and the rhythm for almost a minute, and sort of lucky to get a drum track to match it somewhat (although it is not the best fit either). BTW that lead IS originally from a real sample (one of those sfx thingies) – its just that I added distortion and stuff, to try to make it more edgy than the original. But you are right in that it does sound more processed than real. I am looking forward to be the guinea pig
August 26, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Nice attempt. Definitely rock no doubt. The mellowness perception is because the bass track is a little too simple. More drums and some more work on the bass should do the trick. May be mixing in some real guitar tracks or adding electric guitar should be nice too.
What next? May be an album with compositions – rockA shashivadanA, rAkendu vadanA, rockA chandramukhi and ‘Santana’ Ramasvaminam
Arun: LOL! Yes Santana ramasvaminam sounds good. BTW there is a lot of guitar there. The main lead is guitar (actually original sample is from a real guitar – not mien of course) albeit processed. The rhythm section has the clean bass line, and the distorted rhythm. Of course they are all simplistic stuff – as my most effort was seeing how to fit the lead melody to a progression. What I could have done is increased the treble on all – which would make it more “edgy”. But I also think you guys with the mellow-complaint need to turn up the volume all the way
!!
August 26, 2008 at 10:06 pm
“However, if your musical interests (past and/or present) do not include the strange mix of Carnatic music and Hard rock, then there is a good chance that you closed your ears, and chanted Shiva Shiva
!”
Does “Shiva Shiva” refer to the kriti here?
Arun: No no
! That was a joke – Shiva Shiva as in “abomination! abomination!”. There is no krithi here – except the intentional pun on raga name to arrive at a title.
August 26, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Arun, Good work. Enjoyed listening to it. The chords fit in nicely. You asked for the first reactions. Here is a combined account of two people, one being me.
1. Gave the impression in a couple of places that it is classically based.
2. More in the category of film based modern music with a big western orientation with a tinge of classical
3. Sounded joyful and bold. Mostly positive emotions.
4. The song has a connected sequence of various rasas: Initially some contemplation, brainstorming through alternatives – which way to go, this way or that way etc.- a moment of clarity which leads to a final resolution and “Ah! got it!” kind of elation. ( highly subjective, of course ).
5. It has scope for expanding each of these small sections further. What you have is the introductory movement which summarizes the whole thing. The middle movement can be an expansion and elaboration of each of the small sections of the first movement . The last movement can be a variation on the intro theme with a similar climactic ending thus keeping with the boldness bhava.
Thanks for sharing the piece!
Arun: Thanks vk and welcome aboard! Quite interesting to see the array of impressions it gave
August 27, 2008 at 1:07 am
Nice piece..:) I am brand new to the mac and still have to mess around with garage band. Arun, I’m impressed!
Arun: Thanks traveller!
August 27, 2008 at 9:39 am
Arun,
I have to concede that I’m pretty much a toddler when it comes to understanding the concepts of chords (/progression) as applied to carnatic music.
I had always had a similar question on pentatonic scales like say mohanam.
C D E G A (C) – how would i play the chords for D ? (since playing D-F-A would have to include F, which is not part of the pentatonic scale, and hence would bring in a ‘foreign’ note if you will ?)
veLicham on mohanam and what your chord progression for simhendramadhyamam was is greaaaaaaatly appreciated !
thanks
Arvind
August 27, 2008 at 10:18 am
Arun – about the chords and other western music concepts that you have mentioned in the entire post, is still completely lost in me. I guess I’ll have to learn them more seriously, atleast to understand such posts.
The musical piece is definitely rock, but not ‘hard’ enough. Like most others have mentioned, a little more bass work and harder drums would have brought out more of a hard rock feel.
Dont know if you have listened to the following tracks, which I thought were decently well blended.
1. Nobody’s fault but mine, Led Zeppelin
2. Mad Mod Mood Fugue, How To Name It (Ilayaraja)
if you have already listened to these, then tell me if I am on the right track.. if not, when you get a chance please do listen to them.. even if not the IR track, definitely the LedZep track.
great post though! ennaladhan fulla purinjika mudiyala.
Arun: Thanks man. Yes – more “edginess” would have helped. I will try to catch those tunes.
August 27, 2008 at 10:25 am
oh and about the mood – definitely really energetic, but just because you mentioned it, I would side with anger… but when I initially listened to it a few times, it did reflect desperation and frustration… but then, maybe these are sort of synonymous with anger.
maybe the presence of an ‘R1′ would’ve made it slant towards anger ? just a kathukutti’s opinion.
Arun: yep – desperation and frustration – I perceive them too and thus leading to anger. R1 – maybe, not sure, but then it certainly would not be simhendramadhyamam
!
August 27, 2008 at 10:31 am
and one more… your post reminded me of this video titled “Harmonic Voltage”.
P.S. – sorry about the spam..
August 27, 2008 at 11:39 am
Arun: Shiva Shiva (the “shantam paapam” type of thing) was my first idea, but then I posted the comment without realizing that Shiva Shiva is a kriti in Kamavardhini and not in Simhendramadhyamam. My mistake there.
Also, am looking for open source alternatives to Garageband (since a Mac is definitely out of my budget right now). I found a couple of neat programs and will compile them today
Also, thanks for linking to my blog from here. Am returning the favour.
Arun: Good luck. Budget and Mac? Also – oil and water
!!
August 27, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Arvind,
I am still learning. In fact just started
You are on the right track as to why D-minor would not fit for mohanam based on C key, as it would bring F. D-major would not work either (no F#). None of the major/minor based chords with D as root would work I think.
Anyway for the concepts of chords and scales:
Based on my very limited understanding, for a “straight-forward” application of the principle, if you take a scale, then for each “degree” of the scale (i.e. ri, ga, pa, dha here for mohanam), you have to see which chords that use that degree/swara as the root would fit. So for ri, you need to look for a D chord, for ga E based chord etc.
The set of chords “that fit” would be those whose notes are all part of the scale of the scale (i.e. mohanam based on C as sa). So for ri, you have to look for a D-based chord that uses only (all or sub-set) of the notes C E G A – besides D of course. Now, for D as root, these notes are the dominant-7th (C), 2nd/9th (E), fourth/11th (G) and fifth (A) for the key D. Generally this would be a uncommon chord since there is no third – major or minor. Some possibilities (1) Dsus2 would D E and A. (2) The “power fifth chord” which is simply D-A.
One possible way to get around this, to again use the principles of harmony, where any key, the “dominant notes” are the 3rd and 5th. So technically, if you want to play a phrase in mohanam that revolves around the ri (i.e. D), you could pick a chord that is based on the pa (A), since “ri” is fifth of the pa. You may then use the bass to play D making it what seems to called a split/slash chord (i.e. A/D, or Amin/D or Asus-2/D etc). This is what I used as a means of escape in simhendramadhyamam.
In any case, even after selecting the set of chords, you may still run into trouble that the “sound of the chords” may be alien to the mood of a melody that tries to bring out mohanam. In fact, this was also a major hurdle for me.
I will post the chord progression for the simhendramadhyamam later. I am at work now, and I cannot remember the details accurately.
Arun
August 28, 2008 at 1:53 am
From a simhendramadhyamam perspective, here is a small comment. There is a lower-degree ni heard in the initial part which would be non-conformant.
Heard:
s,,, ,,,, ,,,, n3 n2 d1 p d,,, ,,,, ,,, dnsr
r,,, ,,ngrngr s,,, ,,, sndpmpdn
s,,, ,,,, ,, grsrsn d,,, ,,,, ,,,, pdns
r,,, ,,,, grsgrsrn s,,, ,,,, snnddppm (etc.)
Please change the initial occurence of n3 n2 d1 p part to sndp.
Please change the swaras to:
s,,, ,,,, ,,,, sndp d,,, ,,,, ,,, dnsr
r,,, ,,ngrngr s,,, ,,,, sndpmpdn
s,,, ,,,, ,, grsrsn d,,, ,,,, ,,,, pdns
r,,, ,,,, grsgrsrn s,,, ,,,, snnddppm (etc.)
August 28, 2008 at 2:11 am
[Read the second line of both passages as
r,,, ,,,, ,,ngrngr etc]
August 28, 2008 at 6:56 am
(very well informed) anonmous,
Excellent catch! – you are very correct. My intention was sndpd….. but instead “hand-crafted” in incorrectly as n3n2dpd… (one reason was that the first sa was done as a quick pitch bend from n3 – and so it sort led way to a “typo” – but still should have caught it as it a different feel.
I have fixed this now and reuploaded it.
Thanks!
Arun
August 28, 2008 at 7:07 am
Arvind,
the chords are
Dm Bb A/E Dm
Dm Bb A/E Dm
Bb/F Bb/F Bb/F Bb7/G# Bb7/G# Bb7/G#
A Bb C# Dm
Note: Scale is D E F G# A Bb C# D for S R2 G2 M2 P D1 N2 S
Bb A#, C# Db
Also, Again A/E means Amaj with E as bass note.
Arun
September 1, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Dear Arun K:
Firstly a well deserved congrats for a great attempt(the ma pa dha pa dha.. ma pa dha pa dha.. ma ni dha pa dha.. phrase towards the end, brings the image of a lean, bare-chested, coke-influenced, weak biceps-ed guitarist in trance beating his head down in air, to mind !!!)
Having heard your tune and spent a good hour on it, here are my humble suggestions…
1.) If a melody is same for two consecutive lines, the chord settings for them needn’t be same; (Although in Rock numbers, Chord progressions tend to be emphasizing the current note of the melody and providing a built-up with long chords sustaining for a longer periods, it needn’t necessarily be repetitive.. (at the same time it needn’t necessarily be different as well.. !!:-) ) If you see your chords, you have predominantly used only 4 chords.. with the same progression repeated for recurring melody.. Also Using the C# in only one place is a sacrilege given the beautiful elevation it normally provides in the scales of Simm. Madh./ Panthu varali/ inna pira Prati Madhyama – Sutha rishaba scales..)
2.) If you can fill-in the gap between two lines with some chords it normally provides a nice syncopation for an otherwise predictable full chords that keep falling bang on samam..
Now coming specific to SM scale, There are some tips that I would like to share with you…
1.) There is One hidden and very very beautiful chord.. (note: In line with your
composition, I have fixed the shruthi as D) that is E7th.. but cleverly played by omitting the B (to meet the requirement of scale’s scale.. as you put it..) In particular when you play the progression of A major followed by E7th (minus B), it provides a heavenly major feel which can be very very poignantly used in serious scales like SM to bring in a sense of relaxation..
2.) Also don’t forget to exploit the mystic feel of minor 9th. Minor 9th without Pa is a wonder.. because though it seem to produce an out-of-scale jarring effect, actually it emphasizes the shruti like no other.. It adds a tremendous mystic feel…
If I were to arrange chords to your melody it would be as follows..
Note: This is by no means a comparison with yours.. These are chords that just comes to my mind and hence would like to share with you… So please please do not mistake me…
Even though you are aware, I will repeat the inversion order of each chords (as the chords specified below needs to be played in the same note sequence, else the effect is not realized to full)
Db(dim) = Db + E + G
Dm9 = D + E + F
Db(Aug)= Db + F + G
E7th = D + E + G#
Bb7 = G# + Bb + D
Here is my chord progression for your song:
D Bb Db(dim) Dm – c# A
(use C# chord for Sndp and A for mpdn respectively for the connecting notes between first two lines)
D Bb A Dm – Bb
(Use the last Bb for the descending connecting notes Sn nd dp pm ..)
Dm9 Db(Aug) Dm9 Db(Aug) (these 4 chords falls on samam at each Ga)
E7th E7th Bb7/G# .. (this is the line where mgr mgr starts)
A Dm9th Bb C# Dm (use Dm9th at the pd phrase of mndpd)
I am curious to know, what you think of these progressions..
Again, Any effort capable of achieving visual effect in mind just by audio is stupendous, and your mad lion is a roaring success there…
With Love
Vicky
September 2, 2008 at 1:07 pm
hello vicky,
Many thanks for the compliments and the suggestions, and welcome to my blog.
Yes – I do see the point that the chord progression I chose was sort of “simplistic”. But it is a natural reflection of my “experience” (or lack of it) in doing such things
! I do want to clarify, that the melody was attempted to fit the chord progression rather than chords to fit a set melody i.e. like certain rock numbers where the same progression for the song is used for the guitar solos. That was sort of the intention from the start.
Atleast the initial cycle (Dm Bb A/E Dm) was one of the few things that gelled before anything concrete came about. Of course later on, I think it was a two-way process in that I wanted the melody to go to a certain place (e.g. around ga, then around ma), which in turn led to a chord.
I think I also had a tendency to keep the chord progression fairly consistent (as in not too many variations), and that is the reason for pretty much the same set of chords throughout. Once again, I was modeling it after the concept in certain rock numbers I knew and liked (e.g. Hotel California follows the same progression throughout, also songs like Time, Comfortably Numb of Pink Floyd). Of course it is possible even those songs had variations in the middle to accentuate the effect, and I missed them and have just gone to an over-simplified amateurish interpretation.
But in general, there is no doubt that the chords I chose were simplistic
! They also cannot be “the best” fit for this melody considering it was hacked up in a couple of days by a guy who was not an expert in western music, AND who hasnt really been in touch with this guitar for 5 years. I did try many other chords for a fit based on the simhendramadhyamam scale – maybe not the whole gamut. I think at that time my mind set gravitated towards chords that I felt were intense enough to match an energetic melody. And among the ones I tried, I guess I found the power of the major chords, contrasting the minor nature of the scale to be a reasonable fit. Hence the result.
I have to try your progression in leisure. Some quick points:
* Yes, I do see the point of adding chords for the transition phases, which would have made it more attractive. This just did not even occur to me – although once I added the melody for the transition, I immediately thought of just the bass line and drums there to accentuate it (this reminded me of some rock song where something similar was used). But since my bass was weak, the effect is simply too toned down
* I do like the Dm9 feel.
* BTW, you are starting with D – is that right? That is going to bring in the third i.e. antara gandharam? In any case, I felt the undertone of SM was strong one of minor nature (?)
* Also, considering that the rhythm is modelled after a distorted guitar (and supposed to be heavier than how it even came out), I wonder if diminished, augmented type chords will introduce too much dissonance because of the distorted sound. This is one reason why in some rock numbers, they stick to the power chords i.e. D5, E5 – where just root and fifth. In any case, this does not mean one cannot use such chords here – just that maybe the rhythm score needs to be appropriately set for those sections?
Thanks again for the suggestions
Arun
September 2, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Thanks much Arun – let me try it out and see whether I can get my head around your detailed explanation
(Shameless plug ahead warning) – Have you tried my half-baked attempt at compositions ?
http://soundclick.com/ragaconcepts
Arvind
September 2, 2008 at 4:25 pm
The starting chord as D was a typo !! [one of those cases where your mind means one thing (Dm in this case) and indeed thinks that it had typed the same thing
..]
Agree with your point on same sets of chord progressions repeated for the whole songs like Hotel California.. But in such cases, the cycle of repetition is too long such that each cycle in itself provides ample variation before they start again.. Nevertheless..
On second thoughts, I would have also loved to use the A Sus4th (played with the sequence of Sa + Ri + Pa) for the note Ri, particularly when it occurs towards the end.. (I have come to notice that, 4th chords provide a terrific penultimate/ finishing effect.. ) i.e., a case like in your second line.. so something like:
Dm Bb Db(dim) Dm – c# A
Dm Bb A(sus4) Dm – Bb
(Note: typo corrected..)
But then I fully agree with your points on sustained and diminished chords becoming just that (i.e, getting really sustained and diminished beyond the point of notice
)) in distorted guitar… Probably I overlooked the “purpose” of chords in the wider context of the Rock song. I guess apart from of Dm9th, none of the unusual chords I arranged stands any chance to make its mark.. I agree..
Rock is more like the Indian Cuisine.. Too much of everything (from the intensity perspective) and the chords that I mentioned are more like the French Cuisine.. !! Your original chords are better suited for the arrangement as is.. mine probably suits if your tune is played by the orchestra of Paul Mauriat
With Love
~ Vicky
PS: On a related note, If you want to have a pure western classical adoption of Simm. Madhyamam, please listen to the following:
1.) How to Name it? (The title track)
2.) Saarah yeh Aalam (Which is the re-digitized version of “Aanandha Raagam” from Panner Pushpangal, although the stanzas of the original are much better) from the flopped hindi movie Shiva 2006.
Also “Tajmahal thevai illai” (amaravathi..? I guess) from Bala Bharathi is worth listening too..
September 2, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Thalattum poongatru ooh mannava is another SM too !
September 2, 2008 at 9:04 pm
I thought I hearded a kewl piece of music. Then I readed the commentsyellam and found
Dm Bb A/E Dm
Dm Bb A/E Dm
Bb/F Bb/F Bb/F Bb7/G# Bb7/G# Bb7/G#
A Bb C# Dm
Is it aall calculus or some madern aalgebra?? Where are the = signs in an unequal world?
Arun:
– welcome back doc
September 3, 2008 at 10:21 am
Arun,
call me crazy, lazy, crude or country brute – but here is what I feel about chords as applied to carnatic music.
Chords essentially outline harmonizing the melody – as far as carnatic music goes, since you are actually ‘bound’ by the swarams, I feel that chords kind of self-elect because of the limitations.
e.g. take our favorite mohanam again.
you could say (or its inversions)
s-r-p
s-r-d
s-g-p
s-g-d
r-g-p
r-g-d
Now this is where the above descriptors fit me – I don’t need to know whether one of these triads are DsusM4Min9 (just exaggerating) –
but is it not the crux of the chords as applied to carnatic raga anyway ? (assuming swarams alien to the raga can’t be used in the chords – even though composers have not stuck hard to this rule)
if we applied the same rule to say hamsadhwani, we get the following possible chords (please don’t ask me the chord names
)
s-r-p
s-r-ni
s-g-p
s-g-ni
r-g-p
r-g-ni
ofcourse, not all of them convey the mood of the raga but that is where I guess one has to apply the inversions to showcase variations ?
Classic example of simple chords is for kurukku chiruthavale (sohni ragam i believe) is
s-g-p
s-g-d
m-d-S
m-d-ri
m-d1-ri
s-g-p
for pretty much the whole song !
what say ?
September 3, 2008 at 11:33 am
Thanks Vicky. I will look up those numbers. BTW, I suddenly had a doubt about minor-9th here.
Dm9 – would be Root + b3 + 5 + 7 + 9 right? If sa is “D”, this then would not fit for SM as it would bring in the kakali-nishadam (dominant7th). Did you mean Dm-add9 (Root + b3 + 5 + 9)? The Dm-add9 has a very nice feel to it.
Arun
September 3, 2008 at 11:44 am
Arvind,
Yes that is pretty much how to go at it from a carnatic angle. But I would suspect not all those combinations will fit the mood of the raga (maybe even after inversions). IMO, just because a chord say has s r2 and pa, it does not necessarily mean that it would go well with any raga that have s r2 and pa.
BTW, for mohanam say based on C, a simple Cmaj, Am and Dsus4 may go a long way.
* C-maj can accentuate sa, ga and pa.
* The A-minor can accentuate sa, da and ga.
* The Dsus4 (or may be even Gsus2 ) gets you ri and pa.
Oh BTW, I listened to your creations. Very nice – I especially liked the charukesi. Were you the one on the vocals? Nice.
Arun
September 3, 2008 at 12:37 pm
danks Arun.
The lead vocals was by your namesake (Arun) – here in the blogging world by the name of zeppelin.
I was chorus’ifying
Arun: Ah – zep. I do visit his blog often. Did not know about his singing prowess
September 3, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Dear Arun:
Indeed I meant the chord Sa+ri+ga+Pa in SM scale, which is usually referred as minor 9th in the Coimbatore Orchestra circles.. But technically speaking it is an added 9th as you said… I was colloquial in its use.. You can read more about Raaja’s application of added 9th chords in an article that I wrote about 8 years ago here: http://www.geocities.com/violinvicky/9thChords.html
Arun: no problem. I also always thought minor-9th was just root+3+5+9 Only recently found out the difference and that the one “i liked better” was actually add-9
. I will check out your article
@ Arun/ Arvind: Honestly limiting yourself to form the chords with only the notes from the scale’s scale could turn out to be a overkill in fusion and a largely academic exercise. Because surprisingly the essence of a given swaram can still be beautified by a chord with an anniya swaram in Raaga’s scale. For me its aspects like this which defines fusion.. (i.e., complimenting one genre with the other with some ground breaking attempts as long as its aesthetic..) Eg: “Meenkodi Theril” (karumbu vil) .. A great Mohanam .. the rasa of mohanam is all over the song.. Assuming a D scale, the second chord of the stanza is F#m (with Ga + Pa + Ni) which beautifies the note ‘Pa’.. (with the melody p d g p p..) Same with the song “raajadhi Raaja un Thandirangal” (Mannan); A very unusual Shanmugapriya.. and the set of chords played solo between the first two lines of stanza is Dm..Gm.. (note Gm is based on Suddha Madhyamam while shanmugapriya is with M2.) But see the way these chords suit the context.. Also listen to an all time genuine classic fusion of Carnatic and Pop .. The great Ninnukkori Varnam from AN.. You would be surprised almost every chord used there will have some anniya swara (A well camouflaged Em with its Ma, taking the cake) while you were enjoying the mohanam all these days…
For instance if you see Arun’s mad lion (!!) the second chord is Bb which creates a descent effect from Dm while at the same time the melody also descents. But if you set a chord which elevates the overall tone w.r.t the main melody which is descending, .. the contrapuntal feel is altogether something else.. I mean actually I tried Gm as the second chord in your tune in place of Bb, it doesn’t sound all that out of place even with the M1.. try it out..
With Love
Vicky
PS: Went through your other blog posts.. and liked them a lot
.. Hope to be a regular visitor.. Especially the Natta Kurinji.. great post.. Have you heard Pallaviye Saranam from Oruvar Vaazhum Aalayam.. You will love it..
Arun: Thanks
I have not heard (of) that song. I will check it out.
September 4, 2008 at 9:50 am
Vicky/Arvind,
Regarding vicky’s comments above regarding not restricting ourselves to chords that contain only the notes/swaras of the raga:
Although my experience here is severely limited, I do tend to agree on the general points mentioned above. Selecting the “right chords” to me so far means selecting the ones that match and accentuate the mood of the melody (or the other way as in my case, selecting the chords that set the right background mood for a melody in a pre-determined raga).
Just like chords whose notes fit the raga may not match the mood of the raga, it is certainly possible that “other chords” may actually fit better. And yes, I can also see how the contrast of the alien-note in the chord can strengthen the mood/flavor of a pattern that revolves or is anchored on some swara. Thus restricting ourselves to only the chords whose notes are part of the raga, can be severely limiting – more so when dealing with hexatonic and pentatonic ragas, as you have lesser and lesser notes to select from
But what can be more challenging is to bring out the raga flavor – and that means accentuating the correct jeeva swaras, although maybe not necessarily mandating the right gamakas at all times (as mandating both would simply make it a pure carnatic melody with orchestration – which is also done).
Even if one takes a raga whose flavor is largely there even in plain notes rather than mandatory contextual gamakas (SM is one example), if we don’t accentuate the right jeeva swaras, then IMO, the melody quickly becomes a paler shade the raga. It then can only be deemed as something “based on the scale/structure of the raga” – like my piece above, and I believe in a significant % of film songs.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with this as it is perhaps a key ingredient that makes it a fusion
One can argue that this is a “new interpretation of the raga” – and there is some truth to it. But one can also argue that unless it is translatable/applicable back to carnatic music, it cannot be called so, and that only an “adaptation of the raga for a different genre”.
Arun
September 5, 2008 at 11:30 am
Hi Arun, This music is very good. I liked the way you have fused the carnatic tune with a western format. Unfortunately I am a complete Music literate, so all your writing on a specific raaga just went over my head. Thanks for coming over to my blog and commenting on my Garage band bit post. All i had done was plain and simple loop mixing.
Arun: Thanks Dinesh and welcome to my blog!
September 23, 2008 at 9:50 am
[...] you are getting it anyway. This mad scientist, spurred by some positive feedback received for his Mad Lion, went back into his Garage, worked with his band (i.e. himself), got “loop”y, and came [...]
October 25, 2009 at 1:12 pm
can anyone guide me for sangeetha jaathimullai end swaras